"Textured Soy Protein" (texturedsoyprotein)
01/27/2015 at 18:57 • Filed to: None
11
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"Textured Soy Protein" (texturedsoyprotein)
01/27/2015 at 18:57 • Filed to: None | 11
| 25 |
Winter tires are awesome. I live in Wisconsin, the land of beer and cheese and usually lots of snow (just not much this year, yet) and swear by winter tires. But there are actually lots of kinds of winter tires.
First off, if you've never driven on winter tires, and feel like your all-seasons are "fine," you're probably right. You're not going to immediately die for lack of winter tires. Some all-season tires are even competent in the winter.
Now, even here in Wisconsin, when I tell people that I have two sets of wheels & tires for my car, they look at me like I have two heads. It takes dedication to run winter tires. You need two sets of wheels, and you need to change them out with the seasons. But that's what being a car guy/girl/(insert gender pronoun here) is all about. All those "normal" people with their regular all-season tires on their regular fwd cars are a bunch of rubes, because I have more winter grip than them.
Some general notes on winter tires:
Winter tires have lots of siping. If you look at the Nokian Hakkapelitta R2 at the top of this post, the sipes are the little squiggly lines on the tread blocks. The sipes are there to create more friction with snow and ice which !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! .
The overall tread pattern is designed to dig in to snow/slush/ice and hold on to it. The physics-y reason for this is that the coefficient of friction between rubber and ice is lower than that of ice and more ice. So if you have a tire that fills up with a bunch of ice (or other wintry precipitation), it sticks better to the ice (or other wintry precipitation) on the road.
The rubber compounds of winter tires also help with winter traction, by staying pliable in colder temperatures. So they have more give than a non-winter rubber compound, and are able to continue sticking to the road in lower temperatures. The tradeoff with these rubber compounds is that they don't hold up so well to being driven year-round. With consistent driving in temps above 40 F, the rubber glazes over which degrades the winter traction even if there's plenty of tread depth remaining. So it's best to mount winter tires on their own set of wheels and only drive on them during the winter. There are a couple exceptions to this, which I'll cover later.
Tires that have passed the tire industry's standard winter grip test and are rated for severe snow duty carry this mountain-snowflake symbol on their sidewall:
Note that the mountain-snowflake is totally different from the M+S stamp that's also in this picture. All the M+S stamp means is the tire's tread is designed for driving in mud & snow, but there is no test a tire needs to pass in order to carry the M+S stamp. Many all-season tires carry the M+S stamp but not the mountain-snowflake. If you want a tire that's actually been tested for winter grip, you want the mountain-snowflake symbol. (Pretty much any tire that has the mountain-snowflake will also have the M+S.)
Onward, to the categories!
Studless Winter
These are the most common type of winter tire. They come in both passenger car and light truck varieties. In addition to rubber compounds that stay soft in cold temps, and lots of sipes, typically they have soft sidewalls, and their handling characteristics are decidedly un-sporty. But they grip really well in crappy weather! The Bridgestone Blizzak WS80 pictured above is a passenger car studless winter tire, and the Firestone Winterforce UV below is a light truck studless winter tire.
The difference in the light truck version is it's got a deeper tread, and larger voids in between the tread blocks.
Studded Winter
Take a similar design to a studless winter tire, and add some metal studs to the mix—mostly. The studs are integrated into the overall structure of the tire, and the tread pattern tends to have not quite as much siping as a studless winter tire. The studs dig down into ice and give better traction than studless winter tires. BUT, many jurisdictions don't allow studded tires. Light truck versions have the same basic differences from their passenger car counterparts as with studless winter tires. (Nokian Hakkapelitta 7 passenger car studded winter above, Nokian Hakkapelitta 8 SUV below.)
Some studless winter tires are actually studdable. They have spots molded into the tread where you can add studs, but the studs aren't quite as integrated into the overall tire as with a tire that comes studded from the factory. If you see those liiiiiiiiiiiitle bitty dots on the Firestone Winterforce UV tread, that's where the studs go.
Performance Winter
Performance winter tires like the Michelin Pilot Alpin PA4 above are studless winter tires that try to give a mix between foul weather traction and sporty handling. They come in sizes to fit performance cars, i.e. lower profile and wider. They often (but not exclusively) have asymmetric tread patterns and much stiffer sidewalls than traditional studless winter tires. Their snow/slush/ice grip is not equal to studless winter tires, but still significantly better than all-season tires.
All-Weather
This is a relatively new tire category, with only a few models. Not to be confused with all-season tires, all-weather tires have tread patterns similar to studless winter tires, but with rubber compounds that won't degrade when driven in warmer temperatures, so they can be driven year-round. All-weather tires primarily marketed in Canada and other places that have laws requiring winter tires for a portion of the year. They have the mountain-snowflake symbol (which is required to avoid a winter tire ticket) but can be your only set of tires.
Non-winter truck tires rated for severe snow duty
Some truck tires, while not specifically designed as winter tires, are also rated for severe snow duty and carry the mountain-snowflake symbol. They don't necessarily have the low-temperature rubber compounds and siping of dedicated winter tires, but are able to do well enough in winter thanks to a combination of overall tread design, some siping, and typically very deep treads. There are a few all-terrain tires that pass the severe snow duty test (including the General Grabber AT2 pictured above—and which I run on my Grand Cherokee) and some commercial traction tires, like the Goodyear Wrangler Duratrac below.
Like all-weather tires, non-winter truck tires with the mountain-snowflake symbol can be driven year-round no problem.
So that's all the categories. As for how to choose? That's complicated. I can tell you that when I had a '99 Miata as my only car, I ran Bridgestone Blizzak WS-60 studless winter tires because that Miata needed all the help it could get in winter. It worked surprisingly well! The Torsen LSD combined with those tires made for a very controllable winter tire. Their overall handling characteristics in the dry were kind of like driving on a nice cake donut, but the winter grip was stellar. The current tire in this series is the Blizzak WS-80.
I replaced that Miata with a Mazdaspeed 6, which because it had awd I decided I could get by with performance winter tires, and I ran Bridgestone Blizzak LM-25s. The current version of these is the LM-60.
Now I've got a dedicated winter vehicle: a Grand Cherokee with Quadra-Drive II 4wd that gives me spiffy electronic front, center and rear LSDs. Since it also gets driven year-round—it's just not my DD outside of winter—and it's one of two vehicles, I didn't want to mess with 2 sets of wheels for it, and I went with General Grabber AT2 all-terrains which are rated for severe snow duty. (The mountain-snowflake symbol picture I used farther up this post is my Grand Cherokee's passenger front tire.)
Regardless of how your get your winter tire on, they're all going to give you that much more enjoyment (and safety!) for your winter driving. GO BUY SOME.
PowderHound
> Textured Soy Protein
01/27/2015 at 19:07 |
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ws80 have a specific rotation to them. I think mine are backward...
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Textured Soy Protein
> PowderHound
01/27/2015 at 19:08 |
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You want the little arrows in front of the ROTATION stamp to be pointing toward the front of the car (with the ROTATION facing right-side up).
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PowderHound
> Textured Soy Protein
01/27/2015 at 19:09 |
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yup.
BATC42
> Textured Soy Protein
01/27/2015 at 19:18 |
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In my family we run Michelin Alpin on 2 of the 3 cars. My father's car (which is his company car, a Peugeot 308), get a new set every year. For the past few years he's been running Michelin Alpin and has had the latest installed (Alpin 5) back in late November. They see 40,000km of severe snow each year and he couldn't be more satisfied with them. Rest of the year the car is on standard Michelin Tires. Given the mileage he does on them (and they are paid by his employer), he has only one set of wheels.
On my car I have 2 sets of wheels, the summer tires are Firestones and the winter set is made of Michelin Alpin 4. I've had them for 3 winter as of now, but they have never seen any real snow driving for extended periods of time.
Third car, VW Passat wagon, we don't put winter tires under it because a) we drive it less than 10,000 km a year now, b) it sucks in the snow even with winter tires, c) that shit goddamn expensive, c) we don't use it when the roads are bad. I think we have Goodyear summer (or all seasons) tires on it right now.
Anyway, everyone living in areas where they get snow each year (or have a bad winter for that matter, low temperature = yay winter tires!) should get a set of appropriate tires. It's safer for everyone, when the temperatures low they have better traction and adherence, and better mileage (low temperature + summer tires = hard compound = bad for everyone).
DasWauto
> Textured Soy Protein
01/27/2015 at 19:19 |
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The sipes and overall tread pattern are designed to dig in to snow/slush/ice and hold on to it. The physics-y reason for this is that the coefficient of friction between rubber and ice is lower than that of ice and more ice. So if you have a tire that fills up with a bunch of ice (or other wintry precipitation), it sticks better to the ice (or other wintry precipitation) on the road.
I don't believe that's correct. The sipes are meant to give the small layer of water on the ice surface a place to go, instead of allowing it to act as a lubricant between the tire and ice. The sipes also deform to give you more biting edges onto a loose or slippery road surface.
RE: All-weather tires: I have used the Hankooks you show in your post and have been reasonably impressed with them. Winter traction is surprisingly excellent. I would say the downside to this tire mostly showed in summer; though the compound didn't seem to get too soft with summer temps, the softer construction of the tires do dull the handling. But hey, no tire is perfect. I would like them to winter biased all seasons, and for that they're rather excellent. [I believe the continental extremecontact DWS falls in this category as well and I've heard and read good things about this tire too.]
JawzX2, Boost Addict. 1.6t, 2.7tt, 4.2t
> Textured Soy Protein
01/27/2015 at 19:19 |
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Dunlop Wintersport 3Ds are my favorite winter tires. Ever. Best compromise between dry-road performance and snow traction I've ever had, also quiet and do well in the rain, not something many performance-winter tires can claim. now if only they made the damn things in a size to fit the FieSTa :P
I'm constantly disappointed by my current Michelin xIce xI3's.
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Textured Soy Protein
> DasWauto
01/27/2015 at 19:23 |
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Ok, you're more correct about the sipes . I'm going to revise to say the tread pattern is for holding on to snow for higher coefficient of friction, and sipes are for deformation to give more bite.
Continental DWS isn't technically an all-weather as it lacks the mountain-snowflake symbol, but they're pretty solid in winter for an all-season.
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Textured Soy Protein
> JawzX2, Boost Addict. 1.6t, 2.7tt, 4.2t
01/27/2015 at 19:26 |
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I was very happy with the tradeoffs of my Blizzak LM-series tires for a performance winter. Might be worth a shot next go round.
Jimmy Tango
> Textured Soy Protein
01/27/2015 at 19:29 |
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Nice guide! I live in Seattle and have been abandon transportation all together during snow days (this year: 0, previous three year combine: 15). I am planning on buying a RWD car and think about using all season/non-RF tire to replace stock RFT. Is that a mistake?
Spasoje
> Textured Soy Protein
01/27/2015 at 19:33 |
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Good article!
The XC90 owner's forums swear by having Nokian WRG2 (now 3) all-weather tires on year-round. I figured if those in colder climates are satisfied, my XC would do quite well in rainy Vancouver (same climate as western WA). About two years in and so far, so good.
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JawzX2, Boost Addict. 1.6t, 2.7tt, 4.2t
> Textured Soy Protein
01/27/2015 at 19:41 |
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Also not available in sizes to fit the FieSTa :/ The 205-45/17 LM-60s MIGHT fit without rubbing, but the 215-width ones definitely wont... (without higher offset rims, which have other issues...)
J.C.
> Textured Soy Protein
01/27/2015 at 19:48 |
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My current DD is an 04 Dakota pushing 200K - since it's driven ~30K miles per year winter tires aren't even a question. Duratrac's perform during the summer, with Blizzaks taking up the slack in the winter. Perfect combo with the 4.56 gears, and a slight lift.
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Textured Soy Protein
> Jimmy Tango
01/27/2015 at 20:05 |
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On my rwd cars I've either:
A) Alternated between summer and winter tires.
B) Bought a Jeep to drive in winter.
In your situation you could probably get away with something like the Continental DWS which is a sporty all-season with pretty decent winter traction. But it won't have as much fair-weather grip as dedicated summer tires.
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Textured Soy Protein
> JawzX2, Boost Addict. 1.6t, 2.7tt, 4.2t
01/27/2015 at 20:22 |
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Are you running snows on the stock rims and then summers on some other rims?
Are you disappointed in the winter grip of the Xi3's winter grip, or their non-sporty handling? I'm going to wager it's the handling since they're a studless winter vs the Wintersport 3D being a performance winter.
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DasWauto
> JawzX2, Boost Addict. 1.6t, 2.7tt, 4.2t
01/27/2015 at 20:34 |
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Yeah, the Xi3 is not a performance oriented winter tire like that Dunlop, quite the opposite in fact. I'm happy with mine, I've found the traction to be excellent, but I had no sporting intentions in choosing them. The sidewall is almost ridiculously soft, to the point of almost looking underinflated when fully up to pressure This makes it wallowy when you lean on it (especially with my 65 sidewall ratio) but does give a bigger contact patch, as intended.
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JawzX2, Boost Addict. 1.6t, 2.7tt, 4.2t
> Textured Soy Protein
01/27/2015 at 20:46 |
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Nope, I'm running winters on 15" wheels, and I also have a set of Dunlop Direzza Z-IIs in 205-50/15 (and its an affordable size to get R compound autocross tires in). I'm actually LESS disappointed in the dry road performance (you expect compromises in that area, AND its a narrower tire, 195 vs 205,they're quit squishy, but also very predictable...) but the snow performance is HIGHLY optimized in the direction of rotation, leading to (pants-shittingly) poor braking performance. They might be better in deep snow than the Dunlops, but on average the Wintersports are better in all categories.
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JawzX2, Boost Addict. 1.6t, 2.7tt, 4.2t
> DasWauto
01/27/2015 at 20:51 |
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I'd probably be less disappointed if the Wintersport's weren't so damn good... but I do find the braking performance of the xI3's to be very poor in all conditions. They seem to be highly optimized in the direction of rotation for forward traction to the detriment of other performance.
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Textured Soy Protein
> JawzX2, Boost Addict. 1.6t, 2.7tt, 4.2t
01/27/2015 at 21:06 |
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Ah so are you running 195/55-15 Xi3s?
Looking at some of the test data on Tire Rack, the Xi3s are supposedly great at braking on ice. If you're having trouble braking in the snow, maybe the Xi3s are more biased toward ice braking. Hey, they've got the word "ice" in their name, right?
Tire Rack does have a test that shows the Continental ExtremeWinterContact out-braking the Xi3s on ice and snow. Closest size for those is 195/60-15.
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JawzX2, Boost Addict. 1.6t, 2.7tt, 4.2t
> Textured Soy Protein
01/27/2015 at 21:27 |
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yup, I'm running the 195/55-15 xI3's and they may brake better than some on ice, but the snow braking performance is not noticeably better, and possibly WORSE than the Kumho KH-16 OEM all-seasons I had on my Hyundai Elantra Touring for it's first half-winter. Dunlop makes Wintersport 3Ds in a size to fit the Hyundai (195/65-15), which I promptly purchased. After the Michelins I wish I had just got the General Alitimax Actics...(or the ridiculously expensive 205/40-17 Bridgestone WS80s) they may suck on dry pavement, but at least you can stop :P
JasonStern911
> Textured Soy Protein
01/27/2015 at 23:07 |
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First off, if you've never driven on winter tires, and feel like your all-seasons are "fine," you're probably right. You're not going to immediately die for lack of winter tires. Some all-season tires are even competent in the winter.
Lies! You sound like every Subaru owner I know before the "Well, it started well in the snow. How was I supposed to know it wouldn't stop/corner as well? It has all wheel drive!" /facepalm
Full disclosure - I have summer and all-season tires on separate rims for my 996, and I don't even drive the 996 when the weather is bad.
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Textured Soy Protein
> JasonStern911
01/27/2015 at 23:12 |
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"Fine" with heavy air quotes.
ForwardVector
> Textured Soy Protein
02/03/2015 at 15:04 |
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What are the most badass all-weather, all-surface tires I can stick on my 2014 Forester XT and not have to change my tires constantly because I live in Seattle and like to drive around in the mountains?
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ForwardVector
> ForwardVector
02/03/2015 at 15:05 |
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I'm thinking I just need to get new rims that are sized appropriately for the grabber at2s.
schwartz
> JawzX2, Boost Addict. 1.6t, 2.7tt, 4.2t
02/03/2015 at 16:05 |
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I am running Performance Snows on my FoST (Falken EuroWinter HS449) on stock 18" wheels. All things considered they were excellent value for the money. My only complaint with them is acceleration grip being rather poor in snow. They turn and stop very well. I have had Blizzak WS60's, WinterSport 3D's, and Conti ExtremeWinterContact before. Overall drive pavement the falkens have been excellent, but they will be under 5/32nd after this winter and driving on 18" sucks so hoping to go 17" with dedicated tire next winter.
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Textured Soy Protein
> ForwardVector
02/03/2015 at 17:44 |
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The stock tire size on your Forester is 225/55-18. All-terrain tires like the Grabber AT2 are mostly taller sidewalls, so to get a similar diameter to your stock tires you'd need to go down to 16" wheels. But they're heavy truck tires and in addition to buying new wheels, they'll probably knock a good 2-3 mpg off your mileage. I deal with it because my Grand Cherokee is my winter vehicle and only gets driven 5k miles a year. In your case I'd probably look at an all-weather tire like the Nokian WRG3 SUV , which comes in your stock size.